Archive for the ‘gay marriage’ Category

I would like some opinions on blog that I responded to earlier. In the end, i have now just stopped responding or even looking at it. I am truly offended and appalled at what “conservative christians” truly believe-how many lies that they believe about what will happen to their lives if gay marriage comes to pass….

Here it is, under the heading of What it is to be open-minded—I will leave her name out of it, because i am not looking for people to go and comment to her or harass her in any way….I just want your opinions myself. I know I began losing my temper in the end, so that’s why I’ve decided not to reply any longer….

Her post:

Often times conservatives are accused of being closed-minded, or NOT being open-minded. This is a shame because while I believe that certain individuals can be closed-minded and unwilling to see things from a new perspective, the conservative argument, and the values and morals that conservatives base their arguments are not close-minded principles.

So I ask you.

What does it mean to be open-minded? Are there different definitions?

The dictionary.com definition of “open-minded” is having or showing a mind receptive to new ideas or arguments. Fair enough. I would agree with this definition.

How are conservatives, as a whole of course, not open-minded? Is it just because we won’t allow so called gay “marriages”? Or because we are going protect the lives of the unborn and not give into the selfish arguments of the Pro-choice groups? Are we closed minded because we believe that government should be as small as possible, leaving the state governments stronger, and thus, giving the people more power? I could keep going.

Based on this logic, I think that there could be another definition for being open-minded. I think this is how the left sees it.

Conservatives are closed-minded, hence, NOT open-minded, because we don’t agree with the liberal’s point of view.

Eh, you don’t agree that gays should be able to enter into marriage? You are closed-minded. You are homophobic.

You don’t think women should be allowed the choice to abort their baby if they want? Closed-minded. You obviously don’t want right for women. You keep oppressing them.

You think that Christian morals and values should be upheld in our country? That’s closed-minded because what if it will offend the Jewish community, or Goodness forbid, the Muslims. Let’s allow them to build a Mosque on Ground Zero, but take away your National Day of Prayer.

This mind set it ridiculous.

Well, my conservative collegiates, how about we use this argument against the liberals.

You don’t see that marriage is a union between one man, one woman, and GOD? How about you start opening your mind that there is something greater in this life than always getting what you want. Just because we don’t advocate for gay marriage, doesn’t mean we are homophobic. We are not criticizing the person, we are not saying that they don’t have a right to be happy. We just don’t agree or condone the act.

You don’t see the sanctity and dignity in every human life, even those of unborn children? How about you start opening your mind to the joys of life, the simple things, the beauty and innocence of babies? How about you start seeing that we were ALL created equal. Whites, blacks, asians, unborn babies. They are humans; they have more than “potential.” They are human. They have a soul. We are all equal in God’s eyes, and He created us all equal.

If liberals want us to start seeing their side more, maybe they should work on seeing ours. They can say that conservatives need to be more open-minded all they want, but we can use the same argument.

I hope y’all see where I’m coming from here. I would love to hear what you guys think.

I hope it’s sunny where you are, because it’s a gorgeous day here. Sunny and warm. Makes me thankful for all I have in this life, and all that I have to fight for.

May God bless you on this day.

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scotrik1 said:

I’d like to comment on this. Please don’t take this as argumentative, I do sometimes come across that way, but I’d like to explain my thoughts.

I’m 40, a gay man, and I was raised Catholic. I lived with hearing that I was going to burn in hell my whole life. I quit going to church at 18, though even now I consider myself Christian.

The difference between what you suggest and what gays suggest is this: we want rights that you already have. We are not asking for laws that would change your lives, only ours. You are asking that we settle for what you give us, changing OUR lives personally. You are requiring everyone to live by your moral code. We are just asking that we be allowed to marry the one we love, not that YOU have to marry someone of the same sex. If we get what we want, we are happy and christian lives don’t change at all. If you get what you want, our lives stay without any validation of love acknowledged, and your lives STILL don’t change at all. .

This is a quote out of my blog that I posted today: “Put yourself in someone else’s shoes…can you imagine not being able to hold the hand of your husband/wife in public for fear of having someone take a baseball bat to you? Or possibly stab you 57 times because you’re (GASP) straight?? Can you imagine NEVER talking about your home life for the same fear? Not that your wife made your favorite dinner last night, or that you’d like to leave work early because it’s your anniversary, or that your husband has just had a heart attack, and you’re not allowed to take off work to go to him??? Or for those who love someone from out of the country….having Immigration tell you that it doesn’t matter that you’ve been together for 20 years, they are deporting your spouse because hetereosexuality isn’t accepted in their world as legally binding for them to become citizens?? For those single heterosexuals–can you imagine not being able to even flirt a bit at the grocery store?” These rights are not going to change your personal life one bit, and yet ours would change for the better in drastic measures. Isn’t that what God wants? For us to LOVE each other? God gave me the love that I have for my partner, and it’s only the conservative christian viewpoint that keeps me from having these rights, many of which are designed for couples in love to take care of each other, especially in old age. Imagine growing old, and not being allowed to marry the one you love. No time off to care for them if they are sick, or take time off for their funeral because they are not your “spouse” or “immediate family.”

But that, in my view, is the difference. What you want keeps us from being happy, and what we want doesn’t change your life at all.

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her:

NewStatusQuo said:

@scotrik1

First off, I am very sorry that you were told that you would “burn in hell” for being gay. I would like to tell you that that is NOT the stance of the Catholic church. The Church teaches us that it is not any of our places to judge a person by any means; we all have our own faults and sins, and judgement comes from God. Not any of us. In fact, the Catholic Catechism states, “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives…” (CCC, no. 2358). I invite you to go look it up, if you doubt the stance of the Catholic Church on such matters. It is heartbreaking to hear that you left the Church due to the unjustified judgement of others.

On this note, it is also not our place to redefine marriage as the bible and God set before us. Marriage is more than an agreement between two people; it is a covenant, created by a man and a woman, to God. It is one of the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church. Just because conservative Christians are trying to uphold the sanctity of marriage does not mean that we are denying your right to happiness, or discriminating against you. And we most certainly do not believe that you will burn in hell. But what we are fighting for is the continuance of the will of God in this world, and as Christians and disciples of Christ, we are expected to trust in Him and do His will.

I appreciate your comment. I hope that someday you find it in your heart to return to the Catholic Church.

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ME:

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.

I don’t need to go look up the policies now, I left the church 22 years ago, from a church with an old-school Irish priest. I know the times have changed somewhat. But I’d prefer to have my own beliefs in God that I can believe in wholeheartedly.

I completely understand any christian that believes the parts of the bible that mention homosexuals (even though the passages before and after are ignored) may not want the church to sanctify a gay marriage-and that is every religions right. But I do NOT believe the way some christians are behaving when it comes to LEGAL marriage that has nothing to do with the church. And that is where I have a problem with the church interfering. I’ve had friends all my life that ran off to get married by a justice of the peace, or whatever your particular city might call it. No religion, nothing to do with any church organization. Just the laws of man. Now that’s what I want. I do not want to force any church to approve of it under their own roofs, but as Christians, I do expect you to live and let live…and love and let love. God gave me this love for another man….if not, then who do YOU think gave it to me?? Satan doesn’t create Love….so any christian that feels they are doing God’s will by stunting other people’s love in public and humiliating them is by far an atrocity in my eyes. And truly, how can you look at denying us marriage as NOT being discriminatory and denying us happiness?? That is exactly what it is. Conservative christians ARE denying our happiness, and treating us as second-class citizens, just as they did the blacks back in the Civil Rights era, using certain passages of the bible to put others down instead of holding them up for Love. It was Conservative Christians that wanted to keep the slaves during the civil war, and it was conservative christians that said women should be in the home and not out working and voting, and it was conservative christians that said blacks had enough rights and didn’t need to vote….

In the end, Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality, and it’s definitely not in the Top Ten (the Ten Commandments) and yet murders and adulterers are welcome to get married in the church….even after a divorce nowadays….but because I love someone of the same sex, you think that not only should I not be allowed to marry in your church, but that I should not be allowed to marry ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY. Truly, I find that personally offensive, because it IS personal. And going back to my first response, my happiness would cost you nothing, and yet your happiness in this costs me everything. If you’d like to see more about my feelings on the matter, you are welcome to check out my blog as well, and comment. https://scotrik1.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/hypocrisy-and-lies/

Thank you for actually posting my comment (most don’t) and replying. I’d like to talk more about this with you. There is alot more than “just marriage” involved. One of my blog posts lists many of the “rights” that heterosexual married couples have that I am being denied. And many of them are very important for someone getting older and needing those. It is about Love, but it is also about humanity and loving thy neighbor and not viewing my love as less than yours.

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Her:

The problem with saying that you want a marriage law just to apply to the government is that, eventually, the law will end up applying to Churches all over the country. As nice as that would be at times, it is implausible. A gay marriage law would end up being forced on churches, on all religions.

You are correct in saying that Satan does not create love. But he is able to create a false sense of love. I am by no means saying that your love is false or created by Satan. I do, however, want you to realize that Satan is manipulative. He wants us to turn away from God. He lulls us into this false sense of security, of happiness. His purpose is to get us to deny God, to deny the will of God and turn towards sin.

You say that by denying you the right to marriage, Christians are humiliating you. But I ask you: What do you think about Christians, who are often ostracized because we stand up against gay marriage? What about when WE are discriminated against because we don’t believe in the same things that you do? Is this also not in violation of human rights? It seems like a double standard. We are expected to see your viewpoint, and if we don’t side with you, then we are automatically being discriminatory and denying your right to happiness. But you are not expected to see where we are coming from, and you are allowed to attack us any way you choose because we stand up for what we believe in. I see this all the time at school. I experience this all the time at school. We are not denying your right to happiness! We are not discriminating against you! Denying the right to marriage is not about creating happiness. This whole argument does not produce happiness for us. It is about standing up for our Christian values, standing up for what we feel is right. Just like you are going to stand up for what you believe to be right.

I’m not sure how you can say that we are treating you like second-class citizens. I don’t see how you are treated any differently than anyone else, besides this whole argument.

I would also like to mention the fact that the Catholic church does not condone divorce, and a divorced person may not get remarried within the church unless their former spouse is deceased or they have received an annulment.

Those so-called Christians who enslaved blacks and justified it with holy scripture were not acting in conjunction with God and His word. So to compare Conservative Christians today (most of them at least) and those who enslaved Africans is unfair. And that is offensive to me, to be compared to a slave driver.

Just as you are asking me to see your viewpoint, I ask you to see mine and where I come from. You say that you have a lot to lose in this situation; so do I

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My final response, which she has not yet approved, and probably won’t:

Again-we don’t ostracize and discriminate against you for believing what you do, we do that when you try to force your “morals” onto everyone else in the country. Again, Christ forced nothing of his teachings onto ANYONE.

You have nothing to lose in this. And if you think you do, you’ve been brainwashed by all those lying others that I rail against. What happens to me as to whether I can marry makes absolutely no difference to you whatsoever in your life. But it can make mine better. And if this is how you view Christianity-to hold to your views while it makes others less than you-then you truly need to review your ethics. Sorry to have bothered you-this is why I don’t usually comment, and I won’t be checking back to comment again. I truly hope that you have a wonderful life-even while you try to make sure that I don’t.

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Now, in all honesty, I wanted to say much more. In the end, I kept it short because I didn’t want to truly get into issues and offend her for her beliefs. I truly do believe that she has the right to believe it, just not to pass laws regarding her beliefs while it makes others’ lives less fulfilled than hers. When I posted something about the gameplayer “straight male gamer” the other day, the game designer had a comment that I truly liked: “They’re so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don’t see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what’s everyone’s fuss all about? That’s the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.” <— http://www.nomorelost.org/2011/03/25/straight-male-gamer-told-to-get-over-it-by-bioware/

The SMG was upset because in the game, it was setup that any person could have a relationship with any other person, gay, straight, multiple romances at once…..and some guy flirted with him OMG!!!! So he complained to the company that devised the game. The link shows the response, and KUDOS to Bioware and game developer David Gaider!!

Is this the case with Open-Minded as well? The christians are so used to using their money and power to coerce the laws into being, that they have forgotten that in reality, it’s just bigotry and selfishness on their part, denying other people rights? The more I run into people like Open-Minded, the more I want to run from all christians…then I realize that I have true Christians as friends, ones that don’t believe what she has been brainwashed into believing-that somehow the law will require churches to perform gay ceremonies, that it will change her life, etc, etc, etc. I have true Christians in my life that love me for me, and would be proud to attend my wedding if/when that time comes. So I calm my rage, and concentrate on those friends that support me and love me the way that Christ intended ALL PEOPLE to be cherished and loved.

So, open-minded?? No, I think that they are NOT open-minded about anything…they are hateful human beings that cast their teenage children out of their homes, or subject them to so much hatred that they would rather be dead than IN their homes. They rally and try to make us submit to their rule, trying to pass laws against OUR beliefs, they call us abominations and hold us emotionally hostage while they sit back and smile. They claim that their love is better than ours, that their faith is stronger, that their morals are more just. They are deluded, and this is the corruption of the Christian faith over the centuries. All this  just because of who we LOVE?! Wow…I can not understand how they even consider this to be a Christian way…it truly sickens me. Spreading lies to gain support like “the church will be forced to perform gay ceremonies if this passes” and “gay marriage will cause women to be forced to have children for gays and in the end be nothing more than slavery” and beating a 70-year old man to death with a sock full of stones because the bible said to stone gays…and the old man wasn’t even gay! This is just a short list, there are so many more, and the fact that people believe them is just proof of how people have allowed their religion to blind them to all common sense and sense of decency. I had my own personal problems with Christianity growing up, but I never thought that I would hate it….

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Furthermore, in addition to an unknown number of state and local legal benefits of marriage, there are over 1,100 federal benefits associated with marriage. Marriage in the United States is a legal status and one’s legal status affects every aspect of one’s life. Here is a partial list of legal issues affected by marital status:

  • Access to Military Stores
  • Assumption of Spouse’s Pension
  • Bereavement Leave
  • Immigration
  • Automatic Housing Lease Transfer
  • Bereavement Leave
  • Burial Determination
  • Child Custody
  • Crime Victim’s Recovery Benefits
  • Divorce Protections
  • Domestic Violence Protection
  • Exemption from Property Tax on Partner’s Death
  • Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse
  • Insurance Breaks
  • Joint Adoption and Foster Care
  • Joint Bankruptcy
  • Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records)
  • Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
  • Certain Property Rights
  • Reduced Rate Memberships
  • Sick Leave to Care for Partner
  • Visitation of Partner’s Children
  • Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison
  • Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Sexual orientation and religion – Part 2: Do not place a stumbling block before the blind – Newark Religion & Social Issues | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/religion-social-issues-in-newark/sexual-orientation-and-religion-part-2-do-not-place-a-stumbling-block-before-the-blind#ixzz1FD9qSJRm

Ok, so after reading this list, and mind you it’s just a small part of the rights and privileges given to married couples, I think it’s time to discuss this. The link is where this is found.

I have only read parts 1-3 of this 14 part series, and am working on the rest, but I wanted to post this while it was fresh in my mind.

So, looking at these rights for married couples, how can a “religious and god-loving” person truly say that any person doesn’t deserve to have a marriage to whomever they love? In part 1 of this series, he explained it…the religious right is making tens of millions of dollars, and they are doing it begging for money to fight this “sinful” behavior from becoming legal. It has nothing to do with their religious beliefs, because their beliefs make no difference to us in the rest of the world, except that they are carrying a message of hate that others are listening to. It has nothing to do with following God’s word, because no where does he say “Go forth and force others to your opinion and interpretation of what YOU think my Word says.” He speaks of loving thy neighbor, doing unto others, etc…..Jesus only speaks of love and tolerance for others. Christ NEVER said that anyone’s love is better than another’s. And because YOU think that your love is better than mine is reason enough to spread hatred, causing dozens and at times hundreds of families to split, teens committing suicide from being tormented by YOUR children, and adults being bashed and murdered because YOU think my love isn’t as good as yours?? Hmmmmm.

Years ago, most of us would have been ok with having something of the same value and not called “marriage”. Not anymore. You have proven that not even calling it something other than “marriage” is good enough for you to shut up and be civil. So now, you must deal with the consequences. We will not stop until there is Gay Marriage in all 50 states. Civil Unions are just a step in the right direction. We will have our FULL rights someday. And to all you “christian conservatives” that feel that gay marriage is so obscene that you must fight against it with all your will and might, take a look at the movie Prayers for Bobby….when that happens to YOUR child, we will feel no sympathy for you, only for your child, because YOU are the ones driving these children to do these things.

How obscene is it to NOT love your children unconditionally?? Many LGBTQ teens are thrown out of their homes just because they are gay, and some as young as 12 and 13. How do you condone this?? It is YOUR preaching that makes people feel that they are in the right as parents to do this to their children. Children that are not even grown yet, and must live on the streets where they are mugged and raped, where they don’t have enough food, and even now  some of the “christian” shelters won’t help them just because they are gay. How christian IS this?!? Take a close look at the consequences that come about from your hatred. And when you look inside yourself and be honest, you will see that it IS hatred, that’s all it is.

I truly say that, if we can not have equal rights, then we shall proceed to fight to stop paying taxes at all. It is not legal for us to have to pay taxes and not have all the rights that others have in this country. It’s not fair that we have loving and committed relationships for 40, 50, or more years, and end up broke and destitute and impoverished because our partners’ benefits do not qualify in our relationship. It’s not fair for you to throw around how “promiscuous” a group of people are when you forbid them to have a real relationship status?? And it’s not fair that these children have to listen to you spout off about them burning in hell when they aren’t old enough to understand why, and that sticks with them for the rest of their lives.

As I said, the list above is just a very short list of things we are forbidden, because somehow people believe that giving me a right is taking away from their right. How ludicrous. Stand in the others’ shoes for once. Think of what your life would be if heterosexuality were the “abnormal” and you were denied all these things. Not allowed to take time off if your spouse dies, not allowed to make many legal decisions when it comes to medical treatment, having to pay tax on your partner’s estate and having it taken from you more often than not by his/her family, or even not being able to take time off for a partner that is ill and needs care for awhile. Being fired from your job, just because you are heterosexual. Taking 2 seconds to give your partner a kiss on the cheek after meeting for lunch while one is at work, and risking being accosted and beaten just because of that one little kiss on the cheek. Not being able to hold your partner’s hand in public, EVER, because of fear of heterophobes. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of things that heterosexuals take for granted in their relationships, and yet deny us in the same breath.

Enjoy your time, people, because ours is coming. Coming OUT! 🙂

I had added the page 2010 California Protection of Marriage Act to my list of “liked” pages quite awhile ago just to keep track of the other side of the coin. This has truly become a thorn in my side, and I should have known better.

The page link is here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/2010-California-Protection-of-Marriage-Act/126022448457

It’s truly disheartening to see how people view gays that happen to love one another so much that they would like to be married for the rest of their lives like everyone else. For them to view gays as “unworthy” of marriage is saying that we are unworthy of love, and to me that is purely unacceptable. The Onion article in question on their page is here:  http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theonion.com%2Farticles%2Fmarauding-gay-hordes-drag-thousands-of-helpless-ci%2C19325%2F&h=c2709

I love the onion, and reposted this hilarious article yesterday. I saw today on my newsfeed that 2010 CPMA had also reposted, and I decided (against my better judgement) to take a look at the comments. Some were funny, and not directly aimed at gay marriage, such as “hide your husbands” LOL. Others were just raw and kinda irritated me, to the point that I wanted to make this blog post about it.

PAUSE-ok, I’ve now gone and had a couple drinks, and have gotten a bit more relaxed. Shall we continue?

Wait, I better have one more before I go on….

OK, now I’m feeling a bit better. LOL

I think what bothers me the most about anti-gay religious protesters is that they take certain passages and use it to their own advantage…and disregard the rest. Being so hypocritical, I can’t imagine them being truly God-loving individuals, when they spread hatred and their own personal judgement on others without regard to the verses IN THE SAME BOOK OF THE BIBLE as the ones that condemn homosexuality. And maybe I would feel a little differently about things if gay love was in the Top Ten-The Ten Commandments…you know, the MORTAL sins, that supposedly aren’t forgiven as easily….How many of these Anti-Gay people have committed adultery?? It’s even come out that MANY of them have had same-sex relations at one time or another! How many have stolen? (It makes no difference if it’s 5 cents for $5,000,000, it’s still stealing….how many have coveted something someone else has?? The “keeping up with the Jones’s” is the same thing, you are wanting to show off to the neighbors, which means you crave what they have, because they have more or better. How many bear false witness?? Will you lie to cover your children’s asses?? Hmmmm. How many make it to church EVERY sunday, and don’t work on the Sabbath?? All of these MORTAL sins, and yet they choose not to Love Thy Neighbor, and persist on persecuting gays, and not following all the other verses in these same books of the bible, like not eating pork, not eating shellfish, not backstabbing or lying (most of which their arguments about gays are LIES), not having tattoos, stoning adulterers…..and the list goes on and on and on….naming them all Hypocrites, and heathens, which would have gotten THEM stoned in biblical times. Those who live in glass houses…..those without sin cast the first stone….it is up to God to judge….

And as far as affecting the sanctity of THEIR marriage, it’s ludicrous. We aren’t asking that religions condone performing gay marriages, only that we have the Civil Liberty as everyone else in this country to do so, and it has NOTHING to do with any religion. OR their marriage. It also has nothing to do with an Agenda, it has to do with us being Human, and loving another Human Being, and wanting to share our lives together. Why do you REALLY think that we shouldn’t? It’s not that the bible teaches this or that….you ignore so much of it, that it wouldn’t matter if you allowed yourself to believe that this was ok….it’s the fact that if it’s OK, then YOU will want to give it a try. Those  who protest the most…..hint hint. And it’s been proven over and over by this person belonging to this anti-gay group having a gay affair and getting caught. The biggest bullies WANT to be gay and accepted, and that’s why they are the cruelest, I’ve seen it over and over, even in my personal life. The ones fighting the hardest are GAY-WANNA-BES  and can’t admit it. GROW UP!! Reality this…God created me this way, and God doesn’t make mistakes. You can ignore your impulses all you want, but that doesn’t make them a choice, it makes how you DEAL with them a choice. And my choice, is to follow the gift that God gave me and LOVE the person that God gave to me to love. Again, Satan can’t create Love, only God can. And God created gays to Love the same sex. It’s no mistake, and it’s not against God’s will, or evil. It’s the way God has created us as individuals, and as long as you are judging me and how I love, YOU are sinning against God. YOU are, not me.

 

 

 

 

 

I have found an article in the Huffington Post from a Baptist minister regarding civil unions and marriage pertaining to everyone, not just gays. I completely agree with his idea. Here’s the link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-campolo/a-possible-compromise-on-_b_826170.html?ref=fb&src=sp He talks about how the government should have nothing to do with “marriage” as it pertains to God, and how the church should have nothing to do with the legality of who can marry who in a civil union. If you want a church wedding, you file the civil union paperwork, then go have a church bless your union. If not, then you file the paperwork and that’s it. Churches can keep their noses out of the legality of it, and the government can keep their noses out of the religion of it. Perfect! I’m sure that the “christian right” will still find some problem to have with it, but it will be none of their concern at that point. IF YOU DON’T WANT A GAY MARRIAGE, THEN DON’T MARRY SOMEONE OF THE SAME GENDER!